EV's and Biden

[Tom Kunich]

https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-ev-truck-family-road-trip-chicago-biggest-scam-modern-times

[AMuzi]

On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-ev-truck-family-road-trip-chicago-biggest-scam-modern-times
>

The history of it predates this Administration (they're not
without sin, but hardly unique).

And all that is well known, and clearly was when he bought
it. Mr Canada has to share some of this as Ford didn't hide
the facts from him. One is reminded of our concurrent
discussion regarding a 2002 race bike which [clutch pearls
here] can't fit fat tires.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Roger Meriman]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-ev-truck-family-road-trip-chicago-biggest-scam-modern-times
>>
>
> The history of it predates this Administration (they're not
> without sin, but hardly unique).
>
> And all that is well known, and clearly was when he bought
> it. Mr Canada has to share some of this as Ford didn't hide
> the facts from him. One is reminded of our concurrent
> discussion regarding a 2002 race bike which [clutch pearls
> here] can't fit fat tires.
>

I’d note that this being fox news it feels rather clickbate. Seems to be
mostly that the chargers are well fairly rubbish in terms of reliability,
and certainly in America seems even less available than Europe say.

Where all motorway services will have a charger, and likewise that he might
need a charger is fairly common knowledge, and that your house electrics
might not be up to it, and require work.

Likewise the range, a pick up truck very heavy 35% more than petrol ones,
that its range is 200 ish miles is really fairly impressive considering
that, but it is what it is.

It would appear to be selling well and growing unlike the mustang which is
a bit of odd thing really!

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 16:16:30 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-ev-truck-family-road-trip-chicago-biggest-scam-modern-times
>>
>
>The history of it predates this Administration (they're not
>without sin, but hardly unique).
>
>And all that is well known, and clearly was when he bought
>it. Mr Canada has to share some of this as Ford didn't hide
>the facts from him. One is reminded of our concurrent
>discussion regarding a 2002 race bike which [clutch pearls
>here] can't fit fat tires.

I noticed, the last time I up dated my visa, that the Immigration
Office now has several electric cars. Out of curiosity I asked one of
the Immigration Officers how they liked the new cars and commented
that I couldn't remember seeing a charging station on the road to
Bangkok... about a 300 km trip. He replied, "Oh, we only use them
around town".

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

Ford didn't hide anything but the Ford dealership salesman probably did. For instance - most people are satisfied with their Tesla's because it cost them ZERO to charge their cars at Tesla charging stations. So people are under the impression that charging an electric car is cheap. Hiding the fact that electricity cost more than gasoline even with all of the taxes on gas really changes the picture.

[Tom Kunich]

Roger, would you park your expensive electric car in your expensive house when it is likely to catch fire for no reason that you can detect? Even better yet - as an anti-blackout measure they are now passing laws that electric cars must be bi-directionally charging. In other words - you may come out in the morning to discover your battery flat because a factory needed the electricity more than your car.

[AMuzi]

On 8/12/2023 9:01 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 2:16:39 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-ev-truck-family-road-trip-chicago-biggest-scam-modern-times
>>>
>>
>> The history of it predates this Administration (they're not
>> without sin, but hardly unique).
>>
>> And all that is well known, and clearly was when he bought
>> it. Mr Canada has to share some of this as Ford didn't hide
>> the facts from him. One is reminded of our concurrent
>> discussion regarding a 2002 race bike which [clutch pearls
>> here] can't fit fat tires.
>>

> Ford didn't hide anything but the Ford dealership salesman probably did. For instance - most people are satisfied with their Tesla's because it cost them ZERO to charge their cars at Tesla charging stations. So people are under the impression that charging an electric car is cheap. Hiding the fact that electricity cost more than gasoline even with all of the taxes on gas really changes the picture.
>

Visit Wisconsin in November and at the first snowfall you'll
see new SUVs in the ditch. The salesman told the buyer
'this baby has all wheel drive and steering assist and ABS
braking and electronic traction control - you can drive
through anything!' The gullible ones are in the ditch.

[Tom Kunich]

I'm sure that people drive like that since they drive without even the impression that there are speed limits around here. But that doesn't change the fact that EV's are horribly expensive and provide NOTHING other than a lot fewer moving parts to wear out. But the batteries despite all the lying hype DO wear out a lot more rapidly than the claims.

[Lou Holtman]

Up to now I rode 1000 km with an average of 15.6 kWh/100 km (summer temperatures) with 38 ct/kWh that makes euro 5.93/100 km. With my ICE I averaged 8 ltr/100 km (short distances mostly) with currently euro 2.08/ltr that makes euro 16.64/100 km. Besides that I don’t pay road tax until at least 2025 that saves me 60 euro/month that is 157 kWh which at 20 kWh/100 km 790 free km every month or 9400 free km/year. My solar panels produce 1000 kWh per year more than I need. Instead of selling that for 5,5 ct/kWh I charge my EV with it which means at 20 kWh/100 km is 5000 ‘free’ km per year. In other words it depens. For me I drive almost for free.

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

The battery is garanteed for 160000 km for 80% capacity.

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

Nonsense.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/12/2023 10:12 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> Visit Wisconsin in November and at the first snowfall you'll see new
> SUVs in the ditch.  The salesman told the buyer 'this baby has all wheel
> drive and steering assist and ABS braking and electronic traction
> control - you can drive through anything!'  The gullible ones are in the
> ditch.

I've certainly seen that with gasoline powered SUVs! Rollovers, too.

Idiots seem to actually believe the television commercials showing
vehicles sliding sideways and raising dust in the desert. They miss the
tiny disclaimer "professional driver, closed course."

https://www.bicyclinglife.com/NewsAndViews/Prodriver.htm

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I won't bother to dig out my numbers now, but my EV is also much less
expensive per mile than our previous 40 MPG car.

But I'm curious about your solar charging, Lou. Are your panels tied
into the grid? Or do you have them somehow dedicated to just your car?

I thought one acquaintance of mine charged his EV with his own solar
panels, but he informed me that he's grid connected. He merely tries to
charge his car while it's sunny.

I've got a garage roof that looks ideal for panels, but I must wait
until a neighboring tree dies.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

My solar panels are tied to the grid. What I don’t use at the moment it goes onto the grid. At the end of the year a simple calculation is made kWh taken out of the grid minus kWh put into the grid that is your usage and in my case up to now negative so I get money back a lot less per kWh though hence it is advantageous to charge your car with it. Because of that simple math at the end of the year it doesn’t matter when you do that but that is gonna change next year or the year after that. In that case it is better to charge your car when your solar panels produce more than you currently need. This is in my case on sunny days between April an Oktober. Average I use about 5 to 7 kWh/day. On a sunny day in mentioned period my solar panels produce between 15-20 kWh/day. To get most out of it you have to charge during daytime and you can’t use your car but you can charge 100 range in one day. In my case there are days I don’t use the car so it is doable but it needs some planning. I can plug in my car to my charger and I can tell him/her to only charge when my solar panels produce more than I need. To set up my charging infrastructure (11 kW AC charging) the cost was about 2000 euro. I was not allowed to do that but I could do that myself.

Lou

[AMuzi]

On 8/12/2023 10:21 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 4:01:33 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:

>> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 2:16:39 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-ev-truck-family-road-trip-chicago-biggest-scam-modern-times
>>>>
>>>
>>> The history of it predates this Administration (they're not
>>> without sin, but hardly unique).
>>>
>>> And all that is well known, and clearly was when he bought
>>> it. Mr Canada has to share some of this as Ford didn't hide
>>> the facts from him. One is reminded of our concurrent
>>> discussion regarding a 2002 race bike which [clutch pearls
>>> here] can't fit fat tires.
>>>

>> Ford didn't hide anything but the Ford dealership salesman probably did. For instance - most people are satisfied with their Tesla's because it cost them ZERO to charge their cars at Tesla charging stations. So people are under the impression that charging an electric car is cheap. Hiding the fact that electricity cost more than gasoline even with all of the taxes on gas really changes the picture.
>

> Up to now I rode 1000 km with an average of 15.6 kWh/100 km (summer temperatures) with 38 ct/kWh that makes euro 5.93/100 km. With my ICE I averaged 8 ltr/100 km (short distances mostly) with currently euro 2.08/ltr that makes euro 16.64/100 km. Besides that I don’t pay road tax until at least 2025 that saves me 60 euro/month that is 157 kWh which at 20 kWh/100 km 790 free km every month or 9400 free km/year. My solar panels produce 1000 kWh per year more than I need. Instead of selling that for 5,5 ct/kWh I charge my EV with it which means at 20 kWh/100 km is 5000 ‘free’ km per year. In other words it depens. For me I drive almost for free.
>
> Lou
>

Right.

With some understanding of the facts as they are, you didn't
drive to end of range in rural Minnesota hoping the few
chargers were functional.

Side note- With such a cluster of electronic sensors and
gizmos in the front valence, many new vehicles are extremely
expensive to repair, often slow to source parts and
sometimes unreliable after redo. This is not unique to Ford
electrics now.

[Roger Meriman]

In short yes, as while there are separate issues with battery fires, Ice
cars seem quite capable of burning.

The ability to charge the grid is I believe technology that was
invented/introduced in Japan and not recently.

This doesn’t change that for myself EV aren’t there yet, I don’t buy new or
nearly new cars. As well I don’t do many miles so it’s lower priority I get
about by public transport/bike for most part.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

[Tom Kunich]

On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 8:21:45 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

I would suggest that you drive it for a year or two before you start bragging about it. My Taurus X is sort of a cross between an SUV and a station wagon. I did a 30 mile ride out to the dentist and back at 20.4 mpg. @ the $4.60 per gallon here that's about .21 Euros per mile. And remember that California has the highest priced gas in the nation.

I think that when they work the battery technology out so that they get something like twice the distance per KwH that the simplicity of an electric car will make it worthwhile, But solid state batteries are still in the future.

[Tom Kunich]

Sorry, I said "likely" when I should have said, "could" .

"Researchers from insurance deal site Auto Insurance EZ compiled sales and accident data from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics and the National Transportation Safety Board. The site found that hybrid vehicles had the most fires per 100,000 sales at 3474.5. There were 1529.9 fires per 100k for gas vehicles and just 25.1 fires per 100k sales for electric vehicles."

This is misleading because hybrid and fully electric fires can occur without warning whereas a gasoline fire is caused by a wreck. Your gas car sitting in your garage doesn't suddenly light afire.

[Tom Kunich]

But when solid state batteries come on-line, they will deliver twice the range and at least four times the life span. Add to this that the electric motors have only one moving part aside from the bearings and they suddenly become viable.

Except that electricity is expensive and getting more so. Plus there are presently laws being passed which will probably be universal: your house charging mechanism is going to have to be bi-directional. That is, in case of electricity shortages they can take your auto's electricity to run a factory or prevent blackouts.

[Lou Holtman]

I’m not bragging, just telling how it is from actual using an EV. I don’t care what people drive. Everyone should make his own choice given their situation.

Lou

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 09:12:46 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 8/12/2023 9:01 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 2:16:39 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-ev-truck-family-road-trip-chicago-biggest-scam-modern-times
>>>>
>>>
>>> The history of it predates this Administration (they're not
>>> without sin, but hardly unique).
>>>
>>> And all that is well known, and clearly was when he bought
>>> it. Mr Canada has to share some of this as Ford didn't hide
>>> the facts from him. One is reminded of our concurrent
>>> discussion regarding a 2002 race bike which [clutch pearls
>>> here] can't fit fat tires.
>>>
>
>> Ford didn't hide anything but the Ford dealership salesman probably did. For instance - most people are satisfied with their Tesla's because it cost them ZERO to charge their cars at Tesla charging stations. So people are under the impression that charging an electric car is cheap. Hiding the fact that electricity cost more than gasoline even with all of the taxes on gas really changes the picture.
>>
>
>Visit Wisconsin in November and at the first snowfall you'll
>see new SUVs in the ditch. The salesman told the buyer
>'this baby has all wheel drive and steering assist and ABS
>braking and electronic traction control - you can drive
>through anything!' The gullible ones are in the ditch.

People forget that four wheel drive does not make your brakes work
better.

[Tom Kunich]

I didn't mean that as a negative. People tend to like the positive things about their new cars until the negatives begin to raise their ugly heads.

[AMuzi]

On 8/12/2023 2:24 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 8:21:45 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 4:01:33 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 2:16:39 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-ev-truck-family-road-trip-chicago-biggest-scam-modern-times
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The history of it predates this Administration (they're not
>>>> without sin, but hardly unique).
>>>>
>>>> And all that is well known, and clearly was when he bought
>>>> it. Mr Canada has to share some of this as Ford didn't hide
>>>> the facts from him. One is reminded of our concurrent
>>>> discussion regarding a 2002 race bike which [clutch pearls
>>>> here] can't fit fat tires.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>> Ford didn't hide anything but the Ford dealership salesman probably did. For instance - most people are satisfied with their Tesla's because it cost them ZERO to charge their cars at Tesla charging stations. So people are under the impression that charging an electric car is cheap. Hiding the fact that electricity cost more than gasoline even with all of the taxes on gas really changes the picture.

>> Up to now I rode 1000 km with an average of 15.6 kWh/100 km (summer temperatures) with 38 ct/kWh that makes euro 5.93/100 km. With my ICE I averaged 8 ltr/100 km (short distances mostly) with currently euro 2.08/ltr that makes euro 16.64/100 km. Besides that I don’t pay road tax until at least 2025 that saves me 60 euro/month that is 157 kWh which at 20 kWh/100 km 790 free km every month or 9400 free km/year. My solar panels produce 1000 kWh per year more than I need. Instead of selling that for 5,5 ct/kWh I charge my EV with it which means at 20 kWh/100 km is 5000 ‘free’ km per year. In other words it depens. For me I drive almost for free.

>>
>> Lou
>
> I would suggest that you drive it for a year or two before you start bragging about it. My Taurus X is sort of a cross between an SUV and a station wagon. I did a 30 mile ride out to the dentist and back at 20.4 mpg. @ the $4.60 per gallon here that's about .21 Euros per mile. And remember that California has the highest priced gas in the nation.
>
> I think that when they work the battery technology out so that they get something like twice the distance per KwH that the simplicity of an electric car will make it worthwhile, But solid state batteries are still in the future.
>

It may well be that Mr Holtman's budget, transportation
pattern and personal taste are all well served by his new
electric. Vehicles are not usually good or bad but are more
or less suitable for one person or another. For a panoply of
reasons.

[AMuzi]

On 8/12/2023 2:48 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 09:12:46 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 8/12/2023 9:01 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 2:16:39 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-ev-truck-family-road-trip-chicago-biggest-scam-modern-times
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The history of it predates this Administration (they're not
>>>> without sin, but hardly unique).
>>>>
>>>> And all that is well known, and clearly was when he bought
>>>> it. Mr Canada has to share some of this as Ford didn't hide
>>>> the facts from him. One is reminded of our concurrent
>>>> discussion regarding a 2002 race bike which [clutch pearls
>>>> here] can't fit fat tires.
>>>>
>>
>>> Ford didn't hide anything but the Ford dealership salesman probably did. For instance - most people are satisfied with their Tesla's because it cost them ZERO to charge their cars at Tesla charging stations. So people are under the impression that charging an electric car is cheap. Hiding the fact that electricity cost more than gasoline even with all of the taxes on gas really changes the picture.
>>>
>>
>> Visit Wisconsin in November and at the first snowfall you'll
>> see new SUVs in the ditch. The salesman told the buyer
>> 'this baby has all wheel drive and steering assist and ABS
>> braking and electronic traction control - you can drive
>> through anything!' The gullible ones are in the ditch.
>
> People forget that four wheel drive does not make your brakes work
> better.
>

+1
Applied physics is evident every November.

[Lou Holtman]

And also the other way round. You cite a story of a moron that didn’t know what he was doing. The fire in the car carrier in the North Sea for the Dutch coast was immediately attributed to an EV that caught fire by the media. First inspection showed that the 500 EV’s were on the lower decks and were all intact. The cause of the fire is still unknown. We have to wait and see. If you can charge at home and don’t drive more than 300-400 km a day, there is an EV that can fit the bill. Yes they are expensive and that is a problem that has to be solved for most people. All the other so called problems can be solved or are just in the heads of people.



Lou

[Tom Kunich]

I'm sure that at this point they probably are. But new cars aren't new forever before negatives start rearing their ugly heads. So after a year or so his opinions of his car will carry a lot more weight. My younger brother spend his entire retirement check on a new Integra. That lasted 6 month before he discovered that he needed a 4 wd Ford F150 with a crew cab and an extended bed. I thought about what I needed and got a low mileage used Ford Taurus that turned out to be the idea car for me until I found a Taurus X. The X is a little better since you can step in an out of it instead of sliding down into the cockpit. And the size is just right so that my wife can also step in and out.

I expect that Lou did a lot of thinking and I give him full credit but electric cars are still new and full of bugs.

[John B.]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 09:39:40 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 6:03:09?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 8/12/2023 11:21 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>> > On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 4:01:33?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:

I'm curious. Did you pay for the entire added electrical installation
at your house (I guess your house) and what is the economics, i.e.
cost of installation, lose of interest earnings on installation costs,
maintenance and running costs, etc., versus reduction in electrical
costs and reward for surplus electricity furnished. Disregarding auto
charging.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 12:24:26 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 8:21:45?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 4:01:33?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:

Tom you need to stand up tall and face the music.

California has decreed that:
"in 2022 approved one of the world's first regulations requiring 100%
of new car sales in California to be zero-emission vehicles (ZEVs) by
2035."
and
The federal Government has allowed California to require that half of
all heavy trucks sold in the state be fully electric by 2035, and the
state becomes the world’s first government to require zero-emission
trucks.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/12/2023 3:24 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>> Up to now I rode 1000 km with an average of 15.6 kWh/100 km (summer temperatures) with 38 ct/kWh that makes euro 5.93/100 km. With my ICE I averaged 8 ltr/100 km (short distances mostly) with currently euro 2.08/ltr that makes euro 16.64/100 km. Besides that I don’t pay road tax until at least 2025 that saves me 60 euro/month that is 157 kWh which at 20 kWh/100 km 790 free km every month or 9400 free km/year. My solar panels produce 1000 kWh per year more than I need. Instead of selling that for 5,5 ct/kWh I charge my EV with it which means at 20 kWh/100 km is 5000 ‘free’ km per year. In other words it depens. For me I drive almost for free.
>>
>> Lou
>
> I would suggest that you drive it for a year or two before you start bragging about it.

I've driven mine for about 1.5 years. I didn't buy it to save money, but
it's certainly much cheaper per mile than our previous 40 MPG car. I've
posted numbers here before.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 12:00:01 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 8/12/2023 10:21 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 4:01:33 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 2:16:39 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-ev-truck-family-road-trip-chicago-biggest-scam-modern-times
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The history of it predates this Administration (they're not
>>>> without sin, but hardly unique).
>>>>
>>>> And all that is well known, and clearly was when he bought
>>>> it. Mr Canada has to share some of this as Ford didn't hide
>>>> the facts from him. One is reminded of our concurrent
>>>> discussion regarding a 2002 race bike which [clutch pearls
>>>> here] can't fit fat tires.
>>>>
>
>>> Ford didn't hide anything but the Ford dealership salesman probably did. For instance - most people are satisfied with their Tesla's because it cost them ZERO to charge their cars at Tesla charging stations. So people are under the impression that charging an electric car is cheap. Hiding the fact that electricity cost more than gasoline even with all of the taxes on gas really changes the picture.
>>

>> Up to now I rode 1000 km with an average of 15.6 kWh/100 km (summer temperatures) with 38 ct/kWh that makes euro 5.93/100 km. With my ICE I averaged 8 ltr/100 km (short distances mostly) with currently euro 2.08/ltr that makes euro 16.64/100 km. Besides that I don’t pay road tax until at least 2025 that saves me 60 euro/month that is 157 kWh which at 20 kWh/100 km 790 free km every month or 9400 free km/year. My solar panels produce 1000 kWh per year more than I need. Instead of selling that for 5,5 ct/kWh I charge my EV with it which means at 20 kWh/100 km is 5000 ‘free’ km per year. In other words it depens. For me I drive almost for free.

>>
>> Lou
>>
>
>Right.
>
>With some understanding of the facts as they are, you didn't
>drive to end of range in rural Minnesota hoping the few
>chargers were functional.
>
>Side note- With such a cluster of electronic sensors and
>gizmos in the front valence, many new vehicles are extremely
>expensive to repair, often slow to source parts and
>sometimes unreliable after redo. This is not unique to Ford
>electrics now.

Didn't I read, recently, that because of some sort of falderal between
the U.S. Government and the Chinese that the "chips" used in autos
were getting hard to find?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

The electracal installation needed an opgrade. Normally you have only one phase 240V, 35 A installation that had to be upgraded to 3 phase 240V 25 A per phase. In every household this is already prepared. The network provider does this upgrade which only means two extra fuses and a new circuit breaker. This cost euro 240 and is a half hour work. After that you only have to connect the wallbox to these three phases with circuit breakers and a load balancing unit and the fat cabling of course. This was a extra 1800 euro. It is quite simple but I am not allowed to break the seal only a certified electrician is allowed to do that. Laying the cables under the floor I did myself to save cost. That is simple. I watched the installation and I could do it myself but like I said I am not allowed to (insurance).

Lou

[John B.]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 22:53:52 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

You changed the input from single phase to 3 phase but I assume from
the way you write that the house itself probably remains the original
single phase and only the, what? Car charger? Is 3 phase? Or are the
solar panels also connected to 3 phase device sort of thing?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

No rest of the house is divided now over the three phases. That was part of the change in the , how do you call it, switch box. Single phase had a 35 A fuse, now I have 3 phase with 25 A fuse. It is pretty straight forward. Solar panels are connected to one of the phases.

Lou

[AMuzi]

On 8/12/2023 9:39 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 12:00:01 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 8/12/2023 10:21 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 4:01:33 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>>> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 2:16:39 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-ev-truck-family-road-trip-chicago-biggest-scam-modern-times
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The history of it predates this Administration (they're not
>>>>> without sin, but hardly unique).
>>>>>
>>>>> And all that is well known, and clearly was when he bought
>>>>> it. Mr Canada has to share some of this as Ford didn't hide
>>>>> the facts from him. One is reminded of our concurrent
>>>>> discussion regarding a 2002 race bike which [clutch pearls
>>>>> here] can't fit fat tires.
>>>>>
>>
>>>> Ford didn't hide anything but the Ford dealership salesman probably did. For instance - most people are satisfied with their Tesla's because it cost them ZERO to charge their cars at Tesla charging stations. So people are under the impression that charging an electric car is cheap. Hiding the fact that electricity cost more than gasoline even with all of the taxes on gas really changes the picture.
>>>

>>> Up to now I rode 1000 km with an average of 15.6 kWh/100 km (summer temperatures) with 38 ct/kWh that makes euro 5.93/100 km. With my ICE I averaged 8 ltr/100 km (short distances mostly) with currently euro 2.08/ltr that makes euro 16.64/100 km. Besides that I don’t pay road tax until at least 2025 that saves me 60 euro/month that is 157 kWh which at 20 kWh/100 km 790 free km every month or 9400 free km/year. My solar panels produce 1000 kWh per year more than I need. Instead of selling that for 5,5 ct/kWh I charge my EV with it which means at 20 kWh/100 km is 5000 ‘free’ km per year. In other words it depens. For me I drive almost for free.

>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>>
>> Right.
>>
>> With some understanding of the facts as they are, you didn't
>> drive to end of range in rural Minnesota hoping the few
>> chargers were functional.
>>
>> Side note- With such a cluster of electronic sensors and
>> gizmos in the front valence, many new vehicles are extremely
>> expensive to repair, often slow to source parts and
>> sometimes unreliable after redo. This is not unique to Ford
>> electrics now.
>
> Didn't I read, recently, that because of some sort of falderal between
> the U.S. Government and the Chinese that the "chips" used in autos
> were getting hard to find?
>

That crisis was a year and a half ago, now relatively stable
and in some chip series there is more capacity than sales
right now.

[Tom Kunich]

What brand of EV did you get? Is it a hybrid?

[Lou Holtman]

If I recall correctly Frank has a Kia Niro full electric.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

You've forgotten?

It's a Kia Niro EV. All electric, non-hybrid. It fits our needs perfectly.

As I've said, I think most Americans would be better served by a PHEV,
but this works better for our use requirements.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 13:27:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 8/13/2023 10:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

I think I'm better served with a pickup truck. Many others seem to be,
as well.

[Roger Meriman]

Which you can do as a EV, though bit like the need to drive 700 miles I
suspect most want them for image than use, certainly uk don’t see a dirty
one, the classic MTB/cycling car is a Volkswagen Transporter ie van.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

How long have you had this car?

[Tom Kunich]

I think that the idea of an EV is good but the battery technology needs work yet. And where does the electricity come from? As I said elsewhere, states are passing laws that they can steal the electricity out of your car to protect from blackouts. That is a very serious breach of trust.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 19:52:37 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 13:27:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/13/2023 10:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 7:34:37?PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 8/12/2023 3:24 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Up to now I rode 1000 km with an average of 15.6 kWh/100 km (summer
>>>>>>> temperatures) with 38 ct/kWh that makes euro 5.93/100 km. With my
>>>>>>> ICE I averaged 8 ltr/100 km (short distances mostly) with currently

>>>>>>> euro 2.08/ltr that makes euro 16.64/100 km. Besides that I don?t pay

>>>>>>> road tax until at least 2025 that saves me 60 euro/month that is 157
>>>>>>> kWh which at 20 kWh/100 km 790 free km every month or 9400 free
>>>>>>> km/year. My solar panels produce 1000 kWh per year more than I need.
>>>>>>> Instead of selling that for 5,5 ct/kWh I charge my EV with it which

>>>>>>> means at 20 kWh/100 km is 5000 ?free? km per year. In other words it

>>>>>>> depens. For me I drive almost for free.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would suggest that you drive it for a year or two before you start bragging about it.
>>>>> I've driven mine for about 1.5 years. I didn't buy it to save money, but
>>>>> it's certainly much cheaper per mile than our previous 40 MPG car. I've
>>>>> posted numbers here before.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>
>>>> What brand of EV did you get? Is it a hybrid?
>>>
>>> You've forgotten?
>>>
>>> It's a Kia Niro EV. All electric, non-hybrid. It fits our needs perfectly.
>>>
>>> As I've said, I think most Americans would be better served by a PHEV,
>>> but this works better for our use requirements.
>>
>> I think I'm better served with a pickup truck. Many others seem to be,
>> as well.
>>
>Which you can do as a EV, though bit like the need to drive 700 miles I
>suspect most want them for image than use, certainly uk don’t see a dirty
>one, the classic MTB/cycling car is a Volkswagen Transporter ie van.
>
>Roger Merriman

Well, we saw what happened to guy that fell for the electric Ford f150
hype.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-ev-truck-family-road-trip-chicago-biggest-scam-modern-times

[Roger Meriman]

It’s click bate, and as I said before it’s more a nature of American
chargers, ie it’s rubbish coverage, I’d suggest it’s fairly poor in the uk
but you can charge in every motorway services and plenty of other on route
places and lots of destinations, as ever you pay for that privilege.

Or in other words media is pushing a narrative, I’d suggest that the cars
are good on the whole it’s the chargers which need a lot of work.

Not that I have any intention of a EV yet I don’t spend that much on cars,
do low miles and carry bikes wheels ie estate car of which only one is made
I have zero interest in SUV and so on.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 21:05:27 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

>>> suspect most want them for image than use, certainly uk don?t see a dirty

>>> one, the classic MTB/cycling car is a Volkswagen Transporter ie van.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Well, we saw what happened to guy that fell for the electric Ford f150
>> hype.
>>
>> https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-ev-truck-family-road-trip-chicago-biggest-scam-modern-times
>>
>
>It’s click bate, and as I said before it’s more a nature of American
>chargers, ie it’s rubbish coverage, I’d suggest it’s fairly poor in the uk
>but you can charge in every motorway services and plenty of other on route
>places and lots of destinations, as ever you pay for that privilege.

I wouldn't risk a 200 mile round trip in an EV... and I do that
regularly.

>Or in other words media is pushing a narrative, I’d suggest that the cars
>are good on the whole it’s the chargers which need a lot of work.

.....way more work....

>Not that I have any intention of a EV yet I don’t spend that much on cars,
>do low miles and carry bikes wheels ie estate car of which only one is made
>I have zero interest in SUV and so on.
>
>Roger Merriman

Actually, electricity only works for itty bitty commuter cars.

[Tom Kunich]

Well, you and I agree that something you don't use all that much isn't worth spending a great deal on. Since I bought the Taurus X last year early I have put 4,000 miles on it. I have put more mileage on the bike.

[Tom Kunich]

Which is why I consider very expensive EV's a waste of money at the moment and with the laws that they are presently passing.

[AMuzi]

Or fleets with scheduled routes.

[Roger Meriman]

Certainly in the uk that seems reasonable as car would be charging when I
stopped for a break. And EV charging in services is at least within the
main car park, rather than the attached fuel station which is often fairly
tedious and expensive hence I avoid them, but with a EV it would be
charging while I had a coffee etc.

>
>> Or in other words media is pushing a narrative, I’d suggest that the cars
>> are good on the whole it’s the chargers which need a lot of work.
>
> .....way more work....

Is improving as far as I can tell ie see more about and I believe some
don’t require apps and so on.

>
>> Not that I have any intention of a EV yet I don’t spend that much on cars,
>> do low miles and carry bikes wheels ie estate car of which only one is made
>> I have zero interest in SUV and so on.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
>
> Actually, electricity only works for itty bitty commuter cars.
>

I see just as many out on the motorways, considering the size of most EV
city use doesn’t seem particularly well suited.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 22:04:38 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

>>> It?s click bate, and as I said before it?s more a nature of American
>>> chargers, ie it?s rubbish coverage, I?d suggest it?s fairly poor in the uk

>>> but you can charge in every motorway services and plenty of other on route
>>> places and lots of destinations, as ever you pay for that privilege.
>>
>> I wouldn't risk a 200 mile round trip in an EV... and I do that
>> regularly.
>
>Certainly in the uk that seems reasonable as car would be charging when I
>stopped for a break. And EV charging in services is at least within the
>main car park, rather than the attached fuel station which is often fairly
>tedious and expensive hence I avoid them, but with a EV it would be
>charging while I had a coffee etc.

Long coffee stops doesn't fit my driving style.

I can and have recently driven several 1000 mile straight through
trips. I understand that the Ford F150 takes a special "blue oval"
charging station and it takes 8 hours to charge it.

It's definately not for me... We don't commute, either, so we don't
need an itty bitty commuter car. I'll be dead and gone before EVs
become practical.

>>> Or in other words media is pushing a narrative, I?d suggest that the cars
>>> are good on the whole it?s the chargers which need a lot of work.

>>
>> .....way more work....
>
>Is improving as far as I can tell ie see more about and I believe some
>don’t require apps and so on.
>>

>>> Not that I have any intention of a EV yet I don?t spend that much on cars,

[John B.]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 09:30:04 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 8/12/2023 9:39 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 12:00:01 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/12/2023 10:21 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>>>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 4:01:33 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>>>> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 2:16:39 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-ev-truck-family-road-trip-chicago-biggest-scam-modern-times
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The history of it predates this Administration (they're not
>>>>>> without sin, but hardly unique).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And all that is well known, and clearly was when he bought
>>>>>> it. Mr Canada has to share some of this as Ford didn't hide
>>>>>> the facts from him. One is reminded of our concurrent
>>>>>> discussion regarding a 2002 race bike which [clutch pearls
>>>>>> here] can't fit fat tires.
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> Ford didn't hide anything but the Ford dealership salesman probably did. For instance - most people are satisfied with their Tesla's because it cost them ZERO to charge their cars at Tesla charging stations. So people are under the impression that charging an electric car is cheap. Hiding the fact that electricity cost more than gasoline even with all of the taxes on gas really changes the picture.
>>>>

>>>> Up to now I rode 1000 km with an average of 15.6 kWh/100 km (summer temperatures) with 38 ct/kWh that makes euro 5.93/100 km. With my ICE I averaged 8 ltr/100 km (short distances mostly) with currently euro 2.08/ltr that makes euro 16.64/100 km. Besides that I don’t pay road tax until at least 2025 that saves me 60 euro/month that is 157 kWh which at 20 kWh/100 km 790 free km every month or 9400 free km/year. My solar panels produce 1000 kWh per year more than I need. Instead of selling that for 5,5 ct/kWh I charge my EV with it which means at 20 kWh/100 km is 5000 ‘free’ km per year. In other words it depens. For me I drive almost for free.

>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>
>>> Right.
>>>
>>> With some understanding of the facts as they are, you didn't
>>> drive to end of range in rural Minnesota hoping the few
>>> chargers were functional.
>>>
>>> Side note- With such a cluster of electronic sensors and
>>> gizmos in the front valence, many new vehicles are extremely
>>> expensive to repair, often slow to source parts and
>>> sometimes unreliable after redo. This is not unique to Ford
>>> electrics now.
>>
>> Didn't I read, recently, that because of some sort of falderal between
>> the U.S. Government and the Chinese that the "chips" used in autos
>> were getting hard to find?
>>
>
>That crisis was a year and a half ago, now relatively stable
>and in some chip series there is more capacity than sales
>right now.

There may be another "crises" as the Bangkok Post announced on 15 Jul
2023 that there might be another shortage as China has restricted the
export of gallium and germanium products due to some "U.S. trade War".
https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/2611793/ev-sector-may-face-new-chip-shortage
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

Damn, Tom! Read the posts above! The answer is less than 6" higher on
your computer screen!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/13/2023 5:05 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>
>>
https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-ev-truck-family-road-trip-chicago-biggest-scam-modern-times
>>
>

> It’s click bate...

It is click bait for one side of the political spectrum.

I had an interesting experience related to EV politics about ten months
ago. I ran into a cycling friend I hadn't seen for well over a year. As
usual, we had a very pleasant conversation. He got going on e-bikes,
saying how he thought they were going to do lots of good for lots of
people, etc. He was really quite enthusiastic, more so than I am.

Anyway, I said "Well speaking of electric drives, we bought an EV."

It was like flipping a switch. He immediately switched to full dudgeon
mode: "Oh, don't tell me you're one of THOSE! They're never going to be
able to make us all get rid of our cars! The power system can't handle
it, they're no more efficient than gasoline, they pollute even more,
they ..." - and then he suddenly stopped, realizing he was making an
ass out of himself. (He didn't know he was echoing our local "expert,"
Kunich, but he obviously watches and listens to the same talking heads.)

I told him calmly that I wasn't trying to make him buy an EV; that I
just decided to buy one myself. And as with Tom, I pointed out that the
efficiency is so much greater and the heat losses so much lower that my
homemade polyethylene "frunk" is doing fine, even though it would melt
in an IC engine car. He asked about range, I answered and described our
driving habits, etc.

Again, he realized how he looked and calmed down. The rest of the
conversation was quite calm. But I thought it was an excellent example
of how a right wing echo chamber can badly affect thought processes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

<sigh> Another undocumented Krygowski anecdote, straight from his
vivid, self-serving imagination.. He seems to believe they bolster
his arguments.

[John B.]

The woods are apparently full of people who will leap into the fray,
so to speak, to justify almost anything :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_flat_Earth_beliefs#Flat_Earth_Society
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Meriman]

Doesn’t need to be long the F150 Will charge 15-80% in 36 minutes with a
fast enough charger.

certainly at the services I habitably stop at, there is some charging right
next to where I normally park, next to the cafe as I detest going into the
services proper. Use the toilet and by time I’ve sat had a coffee watched
the planes land etc, which I normally do, most EV would of if not fully
charged certainly have enough to be comfortable to continue and mean I’d
not be stopping for the cars sake but mine.

>
> I can and have recently driven several 1000 mile straight through
> trips. I understand that the Ford F150 takes a special "blue oval"
> charging station and it takes 8 hours to charge it.

See above not true, if one used a granny cable might take 8hr ie not a
charger but simply plugged into house plug.

Blue oval is Ford free charging by looks of things, but you can use others
as far as I can tell it uses standard EV charging cables and ports only
folks who don’t are Tesla’s

In my situation charging and range are getting there, it’s largely that I
don’t buy new cars but use older cars as my mileage is low though I do long
ish journeys reasonably regularly.

>
> It's definately not for me... We don't commute, either, so we don't
> need an itty bitty commuter car. I'll be dead and gone before EVs
> become practical.
>
>>>> Or in other words media is pushing a narrative, I?d suggest that the cars
>>>> are good on the whole it?s the chargers which need a lot of work.
>>>
>>> .....way more work....
>>
>> Is improving as far as I can tell ie see more about and I believe some
>> don’t require apps and so on.
>>>
>>>> Not that I have any intention of a EV yet I don?t spend that much on cars,
>>>> do low miles and carry bikes wheels ie estate car of which only one is made
>>>> I have zero interest in SUV and so on.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>>
>>> Actually, electricity only works for itty bitty commuter cars.
>>>
>>
>> I see just as many out on the motorways, considering the size of most EV
>> city use doesn’t seem particularly well suited.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

Maybe, but you did just quote that the F150 needed blue oval charging
points and 8hrs which is clearly come from somewhere and is well utterly
incorrect.

Media are pushing narratives and so always worth fact checking stuff
particularly when it sounds too good/bad to be true.

Roger Merriman

[Lou Holtman]

Normally I charge at home (AC at 11 kW) but last week I tried DC fast charging to see how it works on my way home from work. I charged 38.7 kWh in 26 minutes. At an average of 15.6 kWh/100 km up to now I added 38.7/15.6 = 250 km range. I had just enough time to finish my coffee at the restaurant next to the chargers. I can live with that in case of a long trip that needs charging on the way.

Lou

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 09:32:18 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

36 minutes... argh.....

>certainly at the services I habitably stop at, there is some charging right
>next to where I normally park, next to the cafe as I detest going into the
>services proper. Use the toilet and by time I’ve sat had a coffee watched
>the planes land etc, which I normally do, most EV would of if not fully
>charged certainly have enough to be comfortable to continue and mean I’d
>not be stopping for the cars sake but mine.
>>
>> I can and have recently driven several 1000 mile straight through
>> trips. I understand that the Ford F150 takes a special "blue oval"
>> charging station and it takes 8 hours to charge it.
>
>See above not true, if one used a granny cable might take 8hr ie not a
>charger but simply plugged into house plug.
>
>Blue oval is Ford free charging by looks of things, but you can use others
>as far as I can tell it uses standard EV charging cables and ports only
>folks who don’t are Tesla’s
>
>In my situation charging and range are getting there, it’s largely that I
>don’t buy new cars but use older cars as my mileage is low though I do long
>ish journeys reasonably regularly.
>>
>> It's definately not for me... We don't commute, either, so we don't
>> need an itty bitty commuter car. I'll be dead and gone before EVs
>> become practical.
>>
>>>>> Or in other words media is pushing a narrative, I?d suggest that the cars
>>>>> are good on the whole it?s the chargers which need a lot of work.
>>>>
>>>> .....way more work....
>>>
>>> Is improving as far as I can tell ie see more about and I believe some

>>> don?t require apps and so on.

>>>>
>>>>> Not that I have any intention of a EV yet I don?t spend that much on cars,
>>>>> do low miles and carry bikes wheels ie estate car of which only one is made
>>>>> I have zero interest in SUV and so on.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Actually, electricity only works for itty bitty commuter cars.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I see just as many out on the motorways, considering the size of most EV

>>> city use doesn?t seem particularly well suited.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>
>Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 10:02:06 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 22:52:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/13/2023 5:05 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>> https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-ev-truck-family-road-trip-chicago-biggest-scam-modern-times
>>>>>
>>>>

>>>> It?s click bate...

It's from a Ford website

"8 Hours
Extended-range battery fully charged (15%-100%)"

https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/features/ev-charging/

[John B.]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 06:31:37 -0400, Catrike Rider

Gee... with my gasoline car I drive in, the guy runs out and says "how
much" and I say "full tank". The guy fills the tank, I hand over the
money and drive off. 10 minutes? (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Meriman]

That’s a slow home charger, it’s designed to charge overnight, quite a
different thing to the chargers you’d encounter on motorway/Freeways and so
on which by some margin faster 40 or so mins to 80%

Last 20% ie 80/100 is apparently always slower another reason bar battery
life to charge to 80% for EV would seem.

You’d maybe encounter such slow chargers at maybe hotel and similar places?
Ie where your likely to be parked up for a while.
>
Certainly doesn’t sound like a deal breaker, friends/neighbours have EV and
while yes the chargers could be in better places/faster/less complex it’s
getting there.

Which seems to be broadly what folks I know who have EV’s say these aren’t
the early adopters who claimed to be fine with a 80 mile range and so on!
But folks just driving.

>> Media are pushing narratives and so always worth fact checking stuff
>> particularly when it sounds too good/bad to be true.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

But you have to go to the petrol station, most folks with EV never do or
equivalent, as they charge at home, so leave with a full tank as you where.

In terms of time wasted if and yes is a big if! You have off street parking
so can charge at home which presently is most of EV owners then they will
have no reason to go and get a charge, or queue even to fill up and so on,
I rely on my cars fairly decent range so I can fill up at places at minimum
fuss and low queues, but it’s still a diversion and time. Particularly if
you clock up all the times per year!

Compared to simply plugging in at home…

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 11:58:29 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

According to Ford, at their special blue oval charging stations, youI
can get about 54 miles on a 10 minute charge on the Lightning. It has
a range of 240/250 miles on a full charge, and that's without a
trailer or a load, and probably without air conditioning.

https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/features/ev-charging/blueoval-charge-network/

I definately do not need this....

[John B.]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 12:14:34 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

I thought that the original problem was the guy in the Ford pickup
that was complaining about not being able to get where he was going
without recharging.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

In the ~1.5 years we've owned our EV, we've charged away from home only
three times. Two were just "topping up," largely to see what the
experience was like.

The first was soon after buying the car, when I'd not yet run 240V for
charging. I had an article I'd written for a newsletter and the deadline
was near, but our internet had been down for many hours. So I drove to
the local transit authority, plugged in to their charger, we walked up
to the main library and used their internet to send off my article,
walked to a cafe for lunch, then back to the car. It was fully charged.

All three recharges were zero cost. The last was paid for by Volkswagen.
It was part of their settlement for their diesel emissions cheating
scandal.

Home charging is extremely convenient, and much less expensive than
gasoline - not that the cost matters to me.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

Indeed which much like running out of fuel takes some doing, more so with
EV in some ways as some such as the F150 will suggest places to charge and
so on, if your using the sat nav and so on.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

Nor do I but I’m not particularly concerned by EV in general but I do
almost more miles by bike than car.

At some point I will get a EV I’m sure but it’s quite a way off for myself
for various reasons.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

The EV charging points at the local shopping center are all inoperative at the moment. For non-Tesla owners it is difficult to find working chargers so you have to have one at home and installation of that has to be done by professionals. And the components are expensive.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 20:14:31 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

>>> That?s a slow home charger, it?s designed to charge overnight, quite a
>>> different thing to the chargers you?d encounter on motorway/Freeways and so

>>> on which by some margin faster 40 or so mins to 80%
>>>
>>> Last 20% ie 80/100 is apparently always slower another reason bar battery
>>> life to charge to 80% for EV would seem.
>>>

>>> You?d maybe encounter such slow chargers at maybe hotel and similar places?

>>> Ie where your likely to be parked up for a while.
>>>>

>>> Certainly doesn?t sound like a deal breaker, friends/neighbours have EV and
>>> while yes the chargers could be in better places/faster/less complex it?s
>>> getting there.
>>>
>>> Which seems to be broadly what folks I know who have EV?s say these aren?t

>>> the early adopters who claimed to be fine with a 80 mile range and so on!
>>> But folks just driving.
>>>
>>>>> Media are pushing narratives and so always worth fact checking stuff
>>>>> particularly when it sounds too good/bad to be true.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>
>>
>> According to Ford, at their special blue oval charging stations, youI
>> can get about 54 miles on a 10 minute charge on the Lightning. It has
>> a range of 240/250 miles on a full charge, and that's without a
>> trailer or a load, and probably without air conditioning.
>>
>> https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/features/ev-charging/blueoval-charge-network/
>>
>> I definately do not need this....
>>
>Nor do I but I’m not particularly concerned by EV in general but I do
>almost more miles by bike than car.
>
>At some point I will get a EV I’m sure but it’s quite a way off for myself
>for various reasons.
>
>Roger Merriman

We've decided thst our next vehicle will be a full size gasoline
fueled pickup.

[Tom Kunich]

Why are you acting like an ass when it is PLAINLY his opinion from experiences he has had? Are you calling him a liar as you're so wont to do?

[Lou Holtman]

I you want to know how it can be and eventually will be look at Norway The Netherlands are getting there as is Germany and France who improved massively last year. Personnaly I could easily share my charger with my neighbours. At work we have now 15 chargers. Every EV who wants to charge can charge.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Remember that you live in Holland - home to very polite people. I just go9t back from having a root canal on a tooth, The only magazine in the waiting room was Golf Digest. I opened it up to see most of the magazine was pictures and narration of large numbers of golf specific shops having "smash and grab" where all of the visible sets of golf club sets and their bags were stolen. One picture was of a stolen car that was driven into the side of a brick building that contained a golf shop. This occurred at night because knocking out that wall by-passed the alarm system and everything in the shop was stolen. These thefts were attributed to Drug Cartels and the Black Mafias. No, this isn't a racist claim since intersection cameras photographed the likely criminals. So do not for one minute believe that anything in the Netherlands is like in the USA since Obama. The cops here are treated so badly that they are quitting in droves and we cannot even enforce speed limits.

[Tom Kunich]

So, you pay $10,000 doe solar cells so that you can charge your car for free and then the electric company takes your car's charge to run a factory somewhere? Like I said, you're very polite. I am up to a point but I'm not giving a dope addict enough money to buy his next fix that might kill him.

[Tom Kunich]

On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 1:37:57 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

Excuse me, you said "charger" and I read "charge". The states are presently passing laws that make chargers bi-directional so that the state can take the charge off of your car to prevent blackouts etc. This means that you charge your car full and then unplug it so that the state cannot get to it.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/14/2023 4:51 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> ... the electric company takes your car's charge to run a factory somewhere?
Tom, what was the source of that latest crazy idea of yours? Please show
us. It will be interesting to see where you get your ideas.

My car is sitting in the garage with over 200 miles of projected range.
How do you suppose the electricity company is going to steal my electrons?


- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 13:46:46 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 3:22:30?AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

Unfortunately Tom you live in a sort of a "democracy" and in a
democracy the majority get to call the shots. So Biden and Obama, who
were elected, are the people's choice.

If you don't like what the "people chose" there is a solution...
simply move to somewhere else. After all, your ancestors did, Frank's
ancestors did, am in fact with the exception of about 3% of the U.S.
population everyone's ancestors moved here from somewhere else.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 20:07:47 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

(:-0 Well, that sort of depends on where you are. As I mentioned the
Immigration office in "Korat" has several EV's and I asked them about
the electric cars and mentioned that I'd never seen a charging station
between "Korat" and Bangkok... about a 3 hour drive --- and they told
me that they "only used them locally".
(Korat is the commonly used name for Nakhon Ratchasima")

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 12.08.2023 um 23:08 schrieb Tom Kunich:
> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 1:44:58 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 8/12/2023 2:24 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 8:21:45 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 4:01:33 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 2:16:39 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/11/2023 3:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-ev-truck-family-road-trip-chicago-biggest-scam-modern-times
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The history of it predates this Administration (they're not
>>>>>> without sin, but hardly unique).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And all that is well known, and clearly was when he bought
>>>>>> it. Mr Canada has to share some of this as Ford didn't hide
>>>>>> the facts from him. One is reminded of our concurrent
>>>>>> discussion regarding a 2002 race bike which [clutch pearls
>>>>>> here] can't fit fat tires.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>> Ford didn't hide anything but the Ford dealership salesman probably did. For instance - most people are satisfied with their Tesla's because it cost them ZERO to charge their cars at Tesla charging stations. So people are under the impression that charging an electric car is cheap. Hiding the fact that electricity cost more than gasoline even with all of the taxes on gas really changes the picture.
>>>> Up to now I rode 1000 km with an average of 15.6 kWh/100 km (summer temperatures) with 38 ct/kWh that makes euro 5.93/100 km. With my ICE I averaged 8 ltr/100 km (short distances mostly) with currently euro 2.08/ltr that makes euro 16.64/100 km. Besides that I don’t pay road tax until at least 2025 that saves me 60 euro/month that is 157 kWh which at 20 kWh/100 km 790 free km every month or 9400 free km/year. My solar panels produce 1000 kWh per year more than I need. Instead of selling that for 5,5 ct/kWh I charge my EV with it which means at 20 kWh/100 km is 5000 ‘free’ km per year. In other words it depens. For me I drive almost for free.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>
>>> I would suggest that you drive it for a year or two before you start bragging about it. My Taurus X is sort of a cross between an SUV and a station wagon. I did a 30 mile ride out to the dentist and back at 20.4 mpg. @ the $4.60 per gallon here that's about .21 Euros per mile. And remember that California has the highest priced gas in the nation.
>>>
>>> I think that when they work the battery technology out so that they get something like twice the distance per KwH that the simplicity of an electric car will make it worthwhile, But solid state batteries are still in the future.
>>>
>> It may well be that Mr Holtman's budget, transportation
>> pattern and personal taste are all well served by his new
>> electric. Vehicles are not usually good or bad but are more
>> or less suitable for one person or another. For a panoply of
>> reasons.

> I'm sure that at this point they probably are. But new cars aren't new forever before negatives start rearing their ugly heads.

Mine is a year and a bit old by now. Despite having a lot less
favorable conditons by living in rented accomodation in a city with no
possiblity of home charging, I'm still (just) on the positive side. The
typical electricity charges on high-speed chargers have gone up from
€0.4 per kWh to €0.51 per kWh (and from free to €0.39 per kWh at ALDI) a
few months after I bought the car.

Holiday trips at 130 km/h come in at the same €0.1 per km as with the
old car; around-town trips are around €.03 per km (half the energy need
of highway trips and cheaper electricity). Driving experience of a new
car compared to the 20-year old previous car is worlds apart.

Rolf

[Roger Meriman]

Indeed will depend on the country though most new EV could drive for few
hours at least ie most will do 200 or so miles, even on motorways, clearly
faster you go the less range and all that!

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

If that works for you, ironically given the discussion the above F150
lightning the EV part would be the least of my worries, as i suspect it
would struggle due to its size in wales both length in terms of turning
circle and width, so the probability of damaged trim and tire damage would
be high and generally make it a liability.

Plus due my present car being an estate, bikes and stuff can be stored out
of the weather and secured, and out of sight, useful on overnight stays
places or services/cafes/ferries and so on.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, why didn't you simply look it up? Instead you go completely out of the way to demonstrate your own ignorance. https://carbuzz.com/news/california-wants-to-make-bidirectional-charging-mandatory-for-new-electric-vehicles

You have far passed the stage at which your mental stability is plainly in question.

[Tom Kunich]

Rolf, what bothers me about your posting isn't that you still like your new car after a year and a half, but that you don't appear to realize that everything except the cost of energy for the new cars is even better in most of the ICE cars. You should have seen my brothers new Lexus!

My Ford Taurus X is 17 years old and while the only bells and whistles I have on it is the backing up alarm that warns of something in the way, it takes me 5 minutes from empty to full at the cheapest possible gas price. For the 15 mile trips I've used it on the last couple of days (outside of the city and on relatively descent roads) it has made 21 mpg. This will probably drop dramatically over the next couple of days because stop light destroy mileage.

[sms]

On 8/15/2023 10:17 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:

<snip>

> Plus due my present car being an estate,

Had to look that up. An "estate" is a "station wagon" in proper English.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

[Roger Meriman]

Most EV have this technology already, if you read the article.

Japan certainly used to mandate it as well natural disasters that could
take out the grid for a while, makes being able to run your house from your
car for a few days a good option.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 8/15/2023 10:17 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Plus due my present car being an estate,
>
> Had to look that up. An "estate" is a "station wagon" in proper English.
>

Not really sure why various places have different names, ie Estate/Station
Wagon/Break and so on guess diversity and all that!

Roger Merriman

[Lou Holtman]

Tom 21 mpg is according to google 11.2 l/100 km. Gasprice here is as of today 2.08 euro/ltr E10, the cheap stuff. That is with your mileage 23.3 euro/100 km. As I mentioned up to now for about 1100 km I managed 15.6 kWh/100 km at 0.38 euro/kWh that is 5.93 euro/100 km. For me it not only about cost, it about driving experience for my kind of riding.

Lou

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 20:24:10 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

I used to own a Land Rover Series IIA 88 and ran into the translation
problem constantly:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/land_rover1.jpg>

The translation problem is worse than you might suspect:

"A conversion guide to British auto terminology"
<https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2014/03/12/a-conversion-guide-to-british-auto-terminology>


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Tom Kunich]

I bought a car that I like; I paid $2000 for it. How much did you pay for your car? Mine fits my needs and is getting DECENT mileage for local roads. Is your car paid off or are you paying a loan on it each month? I'm sure that you like all of the bells and whistles but a modern ICE vehicle has the same bells and whistles like voice activated everything for a fraction of the cost.

I like the idea of an electric car because of so few moving (wearing) parts, but the battery systems presently are in dire need of improvement until I would buy one. In the last three months, I've made enough from my investments to buy an EV outright if I wanted one.

[Tom Kunich]

Why do you insist on looking like an idiot? If you can't understand English buy a clue.

[Roger Meriman]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 20:24:10 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>> On 8/15/2023 10:17 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>> Plus due my present car being an estate,
>
>>> Had to look that up. An "estate" is a "station wagon" in proper English.
>
>> Not really sure why various places have different names, ie Estate/Station
>> Wagon/Break and so on guess diversity and all that!
>> Roger Merriman
>
> I used to own a Land Rover Series IIA 88 and ran into the translation
> problem constantly:
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/land_rover1.jpg>
>
> The translation problem is worse than you might suspect:
>
> "A conversion guide to British auto terminology"
> <https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2014/03/12/a-conversion-guide-to-british-auto-terminology>
>
>

Some I’d say are interchangeable such as earth/ground which I’d certainly
use either, or both!

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/15/2023 3:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 5:09:43 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 8/14/2023 4:51 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> ... the electric company takes your car's charge to run a factory somewhere?
>> Tom, what was the source of that latest crazy idea of yours? Please show
>> us. It will be interesting to see where you get your ideas.
>>
>> My car is sitting in the garage with over 200 miles of projected range.
>> How do you suppose the electricity company is going to steal my electrons?
>>
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> Frank, why didn't you simply look it up? Instead you go completely out of the way to demonstrate your own ignorance. https://carbuzz.com/news/california-wants-to-make-bidirectional-charging-mandatory-for-new-electric-vehicles

No, Tom, you lose again. You stated it as a present day phenomenon, not
as a hypothetical that _might_ possibly occur in California four years
from now.

That's why I asked about my car in my garage. In this present reality,
my car is not in California, and even if it were, nobody would be
stealing my charge.

My, you do get SO riled up about SO many potential issues, don't you?

As a purported multi-millionaire, why don't you hire a therapist to help
you calm down?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/15/2023 6:00 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>>> My Ford Taurus X is 17 years old and ... the only bells and whistles I have on it is the backing up alarm that warns of something in the way... I paid $2000 for it.

Oh yes, a lot of multi-millionaires choose 17-year-old $2000 cars! ;-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/15/2023 5:12 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >
> "A conversion guide to British auto terminology"
> <https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2014/03/12/a-conversion-guide-to-british-auto-terminology>

Nice list! I mentally translate most of those (British to American)
without even thinking about it.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

It seems he put that $233K salary as a Senior Management Consultant to good use....

[Tom Kunich]

Again, you fail to look it up. These laws are being proposed in as many as 14 states at the moment. I know that you cannot stand the idea that someone other than you might actually knows more than you about absolutely anything but then you're willing to lie to take up the slack. Anything that is proposed by the Democrats in California is automatically passed. That is why half of California is proposing to break the state in two.

[Tom Kunich]

More good use of your engineering skills today? Tell us all what you're worth if its more than a plug nickel? I would be surprised if it's over $20,000 from a 401 and you wouldn't have done that if you didn't get more from the company you're presently screwing with your presence.

[John B.]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 15:02:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

But, the English, speak a somewhat different language then USians.
Simple example for a simple mind. "What is a "brew" as used by the
English? "Lets have a brew"?

I deliberately use the word "English" as I once worked with a group of
Scottish oil field workers :-) And the Welch say things like "bamps,
banging and beaut, all of which are incomprehensible to USians :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

Actually, they do. I met a few genuine millionaires when I lived in
Smog Angeles. They usually owned two types of cars. One was a high
end, expensive and well maintained vehicle suitable for arriving at
special occasions. The other was a dumpy looking domestic car, that
appeared on the outside to be only marginally better than an abandoned
car. It was for driving around town and posed little risk of it being
stolen or the owner getting kidnapped. Of course, the engine and
running gear were highly modified which was useful for a fast getaway
or a dash for the last remaining parking place.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 9:43:15 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 19:38:06 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 8/15/2023 6:00 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>
> >>>> My Ford Taurus X is 17 years old and ... the only bells and whistles I have on it is the backing up alarm that warns of something in the way... I paid $2000 for it.
> >
> >Oh yes, a lot of multi-millionaires choose 17-year-old $2000 cars! ;-)
> Actually, they do. I met a few genuine millionaires when I lived in
> Smog Angeles. They usually owned two types of cars. One was a high
> end, expensive and well maintained vehicle suitable for arriving at
> special occasions. The other was a dumpy looking domestic car, that
> appeared on the outside to be only marginally better than an abandoned
> car. It was for driving around town and posed little risk of it being
> stolen or the owner getting kidnapped. Of course, the engine and
> running gear were highly modified which was useful for a fast getaway
> or a dash for the last remaining parking place.
> --

But then it wasn't a $2000 heap like tommy drives, it was a "sleeper".